Curse

tmakinen · Jun 05, 2008, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I am absolutely STUNNED that people are still using the stupid "if you don't like it don't use it" argument. Anybody still using this is ridiculous in my eyes.

IF YOU IGNORE A PROBLEM, THAT MEANS THE PROBLEM IS STILL THERE.

Are you the type of person who when faced with a problem, ignores it, and then claims the problem is solved? If so prepare for a failure of a life.

And this is precisely why people who whine about perceived problems with a game are told that "if you don't like it, don't use it". Quite frankly, the tantrum above sounds like a baby whose rattler doesn't rattle any more.

Let me tell you something. You can always opt out of a game and do something else. You cannot opt out of life and still do something else. That is why I - among other things - vote, demonstrate, write opinion pieces to national media, recycle and do humanitarian work with the resources available to me. There is a reality with real problems that cause suffering and which we can try to set right with our choices. If you cannot see the difference between that and perceived minor inconveniences in the virtual world of a game then come back once you've grown up a bit.

Nobody forces you to play a game. If you don't like it, do something else.

Golgotha · Jun 05, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Seems to be a lot of "if you don't play the way I like, I'm taking my ball and going home". Ragefest 101.

DarkNecrid · Jun 05, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Nobody forces you to play a game. If you don't like it, do something else.

So basically, you're a huge fan of dictatorship?

There's a reason customers are allowed to voice opinions and complain about products you know.

Sab · Jun 05, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

And I remember Gaile saying that several community wanted changes were changed because of ANet intern discussions and not because of the wants of the community. There is no way of finding the truth there. Besides hadn´t Jeff said, that the forums are only a very small part of the community, which would mean that they can easily be ignored?

Of course they withhold the right to change or not change any aspect of the game, that was never in question. However, ANet is not infallible - they are not The Party in 1984. The game is driven by the community as much as the developers themselves, and that was the point of my post.

As for Jeff Strain's speech, you're drawing too much from it. He was reminding us that the average player will never visit forums, and they are not experts at the game. Even though forums will not be read by the majority of players, ignoring them would be silly. Forum-goers range from players who've just picked up the game, to those who've been playing since beta, and every one of them has an opinion. The hard part is choosing who to listen to, and which suggestions are beneficial to the game. In any case, disregarding one of the few venues where players can communicate back to the developers won't make for a long-lasting franchise.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Nobody forces you to play a game. If you don't like it, do something else.

If you don't like his opinion, don't read it.

zwei2stein · Jun 05, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

Comparing abortion and death sentances with skills in a game... And you want to be taken seriously?

And you want to be taken seriously?

Purposefully ignoring example of logical fallacy, claiming it to be argument and committing classical strawman ad homini on it while maintaining holier than you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

...

Thats really nice of you, you are sadly in minority, consider this:

* Games are learning experience.

That is, you are teaching someone something.

Games are already pretty screwed (i.e. whole Spend a lot of time, you are guaranteed to be victor; menial tasks are way to go ...) as they are.

They don't really need to teach kids "If thing don't go your way, quit".
They don't need to teach kids "You can ignore problems, it is solution that works."

Because ultimately someone WILL take this lessons to real world. For most of people hunger in africa is as abstract as some videogamewhines. People as whole are unconcerned by what does not directly effect them. No action is taken, problem is ignored because it is much more confortable to pretend that starving people are a-ok. Sad but true. No need to make this feature of human psyche strengthened by game.

Also, i will ask you. How do you view someone who cant follow some principles in game? It does not cost him anything, there are no personal sacrifices, etc. It's just game. But will such person act rightly in real world when it would eventually cost him something? I think he is less likely.

Whole western culture is based on selfish acts and ignorance of cause and consequences, well, it at least seems so. If someone acts selfishly without taking consequences into account in game, where it gives him nothing of real value, how do you think such person would act in real world where there is a lot to be gained by being selfish and inconsiderate of consequences.

Mouse at Large · Jun 05, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

So basically, you're a huge fan of dictatorship?

There's a reason customers are allowed to voice opinions and complain about products you know.

Errrr - no. A dictatorship will force you to do something whether you want to or not. In this case, you still have a choice. Play the game with or without the skills you consider "broken". Or ultimately leave the game and do something else......

As for listening to the player base as customers, I agree. Any company that wilfully ignores its consumer base will not last long. However, it is axiomatic that those who perceive some sort of shortcoming are those that are most likely to complain. Product suppliers must balance these overt criticisms against the silent (majority) who may well be content with the product. It's a difficult balancing act

Occasionally, a Ralph Nader may come along, but that's pretty rare!

Skye Marin · Jun 05, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

I know folks don't like the "don't like it, don't play it" argument, or claim it's a non-argument.

What about the "even if it gets nerfed, the next thing will just take it's place" argument?

I think it's an okay argument, PvP has experienced it for years, and Anet could better invest resources in GW2 than trying to "fix" skills in GW PvE. Is the Splinter/Barrage-Pet still not the standard Tombs run build to use for a quick setup and victory? Remember all those nerfs?

As far as build diversity goes, PvE will still experience skill buffs as buffs don't need to be split for PvE play, which allows PvE players to experiment a bit, which is fun for plenty of folks.

Elitist groups will still be Elitist, and folks will voice their opinions on forums no matter what Anet does, so I think it's in Anet's best interest to invest their resources on their next product, and brainstorm to avoid these problems altogether.

Cacheelma · Jun 05, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If you don't like his opinion, don't read it.

You got pwned there, tmakinen. Deal with it.

tmakinen · Jun 05, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

a reasonable take on games as a learning experience

My recently deceased father-in-law had this writing on his living room wall:

"Give me strength to change what I can,
and to accept what I cannot,
and wisdom to tell those two apart."

Would you say that there exists such a thing as a perfect hammer? It is a very simple tool of extremely ancient origin, surely by now it should have been advanced to perfection? However, what works for a mason doesn't work a shoemaker and what works for a carpenter doesn't work for a blacksmith. All those people would have an opinion on what works best for them and if they were very single-minded in their profession they might even believe that their concept of a 'perfect hammer' would be the perfect hammer. The perfect hammer doesn't exist, so it's time to learn a lesson. You can either do your job with the tool that is available and tolerate imperfection, or if the tool is completely unsuitable for the task try to find some other tool. You fail to learn the lesson if you demand that the tool should be modified according to your concept of a perfect tool, when other people who are also using that tool have different ideals.

Now substitute the simple tool with something much more complex like a society or a virtual world. The first step towards wisdom is to acknowledge that either of them is not revolving around your navel, and this is the most valuable lesson that an on-line game can teach (since single player games do revolve around the player). Learn to compromise, learn to take things as they are and make the most out of what you've got, and when there are problems change what you can. More often than not the only thing that you can change is your own attitude and actions. That would be a great lesson to be learned for many people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

You got pwned there, tmakinen.

Uh-huh, I certainly didn't. Sab's attempt at a retort was such a pathetic failure that I didn't even care to reply but apparently there are people who get swayed by logical fallacies, so let's have a look. I read the opinion once to find out what it was about (reading is a necessary requirement of finding out whether to agree or disagree), wrote a reply (because this is a discussion forum) and then I was done with it. Specifically, I didn't keep reading it over and over while complaining how the person should change his/her opinion to match mine. For all I care, s/he is free to keep that opinion, and I keep mine because I find it better. So, the retort should have been: "If you don't like his opinion, don't use it". And I don't

upier · Jun 05, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The view that the community have no say is not only boring and adds nothing to the discussion, but it's also incorrect. The community has a huge influence, and a lot of major improvements in the game were driven by these very forums. Unfortunately, the larger part of that community do not care for things like balance, that's why the game is getting shallower and shallower with each update.

The PvE community had a "huge influence" on the balance of the game?
When did THAT happen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's why they don't consider Ursan to be a problem that's the chief source of concern, since both points you've mentioned pointed to both parties being disappointed.

I think that was addressed a few posts back.
Because GWEN has absolutely nothing to offer outside of Ursan.
Yet, they want it to sell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If you don't like his opinion, don't read it.

It's not like the people that matter in this don't like your opinion - it's just that they don't care for it because it would make them lose money.

DreamWind · Jun 05, 2008, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

And this is precisely why people who whine about perceived problems with a game are told that "if you don't like it, don't use it". Quite frankly, the tantrum above sounds like a baby whose rattler doesn't rattle any more.

Let me tell you something. You can always opt out of a game and do something else. You cannot opt out of life and still do something else. That is why I - among other things - vote, demonstrate, write opinion pieces to national media, recycle and do humanitarian work with the resources available to me. There is a reality with real problems that cause suffering and which we can try to set right with our choices. If you cannot see the difference between that and perceived minor inconveniences in the virtual world of a game then come back once you've grown up a bit.

Nobody forces you to play a game. If you don't like it, do something else.

Nobody is forcing you to get on these game forums, read my opinion, and post a response to it. And many people HAVE quit the game to do something else because of changes made to it.

I understand your points, but that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. This is a Guild Wars forum for Guild Wars fans to talk about Guild Wars, and that is exactly what people are using it for. People using the "if you don't like it don't use it" argument are still ridiculous.

around · Jun 05, 2008, 09:35 AM // 09:35

You're missing the whole point of games: they should not be like real life

In real life, everything is not in cartoon motion (apart from on a Mika album), and you don't have healing guns that magically turn people invincible for a short time.

Neither can you summon spirits that spew balls of what looks like gunk at your enemies (although that would be cool).

The whole point of a game is whether it's fun or not. If it once was fun and then was changed so it wasn't, you're going to want to make it fun again, instead of just accepting it, because you know it can be done.

pumpkin pie · Jun 05, 2008, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I think the if you don't like it don't use it argument is = variety.

if you want to play style A you can, if you want to play style B you can i don't think i need to go on until Z.

But when people says don't use it if you don't like it, I think it means that every player have a choice, actually many choices in how you play Guild Wars, because the attributes aren't locked, your second profession is changeable, so instead of wanting to get rid of something that some player thinks is over-powered (to many it might not be, just look at how many players are enjoying Ursan Blessing) why not leave it and use something else that you think are more challenging to your play style.

Angels Guidance · Jun 05, 2008, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Lets all go E/Mo smite Pve! yays

ogre_jd · Jun 05, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because GWEN has absolutely nothing to offer outside of Ursan.

If you truly believe that, well, I feel sorry for you.

tmakinen · Jun 05, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

The whole point of a game is whether it's fun or not.

I couldn't agree more

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

If it once was fun and then was changed so it wasn't, you're going to want to make it fun again, instead of just accepting it, because you know it can be done.

That might be a warrantlessly optimistic attitude. Usually, when a game ceases to be fun the one that changed was the player instead of the game. A man cannot bathe twice in the same river and all that. I would hazard a guess that if ANet reseted the game to the exact state in which it was the day Prophecies came out it would cause an outcry of proportions that has never been witnessed before (and we've had some pretty good ones here along the way).

Don't get me wrong. I originally chose GW because of some wonderfully innovative features that set it apart from everything else in its genre. Many of those features have been since diluted by deliberate changes to the game, and I have been annoyed on occasion. However, that is the nature of the beast. If I was unable or unwilling to cope with change I would have bought an off-line game instead. I can still make the game fun for myself, and I don't need consumables or overpowered PvE skills for that, or the buffed Ether Renewal either if it comes to that. If at some point that ceases to be true, I will thank the developers for many fun and memorable moments, uninstall and do something else. As I see it, I have already gotten more than my money's worth of entertainment out of the series. Since I don't pay a monthly fee I don't feel entitled to demand any changes to the game at this point. In fact I'm pretty thankful that the servers are still running at all.

Turtle222 · Jun 05, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I am absolutely STUNNED that people are still using the stupid "if you don't like it don't use it" argument. Anybody still using this is ridiculous in my eyes.

IF YOU IGNORE A PROBLEM, THAT MEANS THE PROBLEM IS STILL THERE.

Are you the type of person who when faced with a problem, ignores it, and then claims the problem is solved? If so prepare for a failure of a life.

Not to mention, overpowered skills DO indirectly and directly affect the rest of the playerbase in Guild Wars on so many levels that you can't even comprehend at the moment. Changes to the game affect the ENTIRE GAME. Talking about the game as if it is your experience alone and not the entire population is stupid.

Smart people posting here are talking about balance in regards to HEALTH OF THE GAME, and not from these selfish perspectives.

I HEARD USING CAPSLOCK MAKES YOUR VOICE HEARD!1one!11!

Calm down. I think the reason people are using the "don't like it? don't use it" arguement is because gw is an instanced game. It literally has the ability to be single player. Thus, those that H/H most of the time (ie. 95% of the guru community it seems) are the only ones going to be affected by its gameplay.

I do still care about the pve aspect of the game, yet...unless they change ursan (which is THE staple build for elite missions etc) it won't really matter which skills they buff as the majority will continue to use ursan. So for the moment i am passive. But ofcourse if they do something to revert something that was absurdly overpowered such as soul reaping having no timer, then that would be gamebreaking.

Abedeus · Jun 05, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

The whole point of a game is whether it's fun or not. If it once was fun and then was changed so it wasn't, you're going to want to make it fun again, instead of just accepting it, because you know it can be done.

QFT. The only thing left in this game fun is playing with guildies, because this aspect of GW is not yet destroyed. But don't worry, they will do something to make us suffer.

Quote:

If you truly believe that, well, I feel sorry for you.

Oh, right, and some overpowered pve skills, nerfed pvp skills, elites to cap (all the same, it's just that some elites are faster to cap then in other campaigns) and almost same looking dungeons. Oh and more golds/greens to grind. And titles to grind.

Sab · Jun 05, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The PvE community had a "huge influence" on the balance of the game?
When did THAT happen?

I'm pretty sure you missed everything I said.

ANet have implemented features such as titles, reconnects, and so forth, that originate from the community. While they've taken some suggestions on board, they haven't been taking PvErs' balancing advice seriously until the recent skill split.

Sethellington · Jun 05, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

they nerfed the shit out of SR already, no need to do so again. seriously.

with ursan: yeah, it's broken, but i still enjoy pugging with it cos it's easy to find a party and i've made friends doing so. I can get by fine without it, I got Canthan Vanq/Guardian and all 3 prot titles without even doing the Ursan quest. I could still do it fine now, but this way it's a bit easier. It helps people with hero set ups as everyone can be regarded as the same primary profession. All in all, this is just another "QQ I'm too good for Ursan" thread.